Henrik Taubøll motiverer oss for å reise til Expo Real
Henrik 00:00
Det er en arena som kanskje går litt under radaren for mange, men det er jo Europas største eiendomsmesse, så det er definitivt noe å få med seg hvis du driver med eiendom. Og Expo Real var jo det stedet hvor Spacemaker ble lansert første gang, i den konkurransen, og Disruptive Technologies har vært der, Clever, mange, og Airthings selvfølgelig, godt eksponert. Så Expo Real er en av de mest interessante arenaene for å se nye ting og lære om ny teknologi og ting som dukker opp.
Og Expo Real har alltid hatt et litt annerledes perspektiv enn det vanlige vi ser i Norge. Det kommer veldig fra Sentral-Europa, det er mange nye produkter som man ikke har hørt om. Det er veldig, veldig stort der. Og for å ta pulsen på det viktigste som skjer, så tror jeg det er viktig å være på Expo Real.
Andreas Farberg i KLP har en plan for sin reise til München
Høyttaleranlegg 00:45
God morgen! Norwegian rute 1156 til München vil om kort tid være klar for ombordstigning ved utgang D5.
Martin 00:59
Da har jeg kommet meg bort til gate D5 her på Oslo Gardermoen, og det er flere som skal ta turen til München. Jeg står med Andreas Farberg fra KLP, investeringsansvarlig for den globale porteføljen. Hvorfor skal du til München?
Andreas 01:11
Vi har jo investeringer i syv europeiske eiendomsfond, så jeg er her nede både for å snakke med de forvalterne som jeg allerede er investert sammen med, og så har jeg en del møter med forvaltere som vi ikke har investert i i dag, men som vi kanskje skal investere i i fremtiden.
Martin 01:29
Og for de av lytterne våre som ikke har gleden av å reise til München eller kjenner til Expo Real, kan du kort forklare: Hva er denne messen?
Andreas 01:38
Det er egentlig en gigantisk messe med en ansamling av tyske eiendomsselskaper, tyske eiendomsforvaltere og tjenesteleverandører på eiendom. Mye tysk, for vi er jo i Tyskland, men også ganske mange internasjonale aktører.
Martin 01:58
Du har jo tidligere jobbet med innovasjon og eiendomsteknologi i KLP. Nå sitter du litt nærmere pengesekken, men du har fortsatt den lidenskapen for teknologi. Er det noe PropTech i München du kommer til å holde øyet ute etter?
Andreas 02:13
Jeg synes jo generelt det er morsomt å følge med og se hva som har skjedd siden jeg hadde dette som hovedansvar i 2018. Så det er egentlig bare for å se om de produktene og tjenestene man sa skulle revolusjonere eiendomsbransjen i 2018, har kommet så langt at de har gjort det i dag. Og så tenkte jeg å ta en tur innom litt gamle kjente navn, som Airthings og andre norske selskaper.
Martin 02:43
Vi gleder oss til å ha deg på boden til Airthings, og så får tiden vise hvordan eiendomsteknologi har utviklet seg i München. God reise!
Andreas 02:51
Takk for det.
Høyttaleranlegg 02:52
Hjertelig velkommen om bord på denne flygningen ned mot München.
Sjefredaktøren i Property EU, Robin Marriott, gir oss en oversikt på de store makro-temaene i europeisk eiendom på vei til messen på U-Bahn.
Martin 02:58
We’re on the metro, the U-Bahn, into Messe West. First day of Expo Real, and I’m here with Robin from Property EU. Are you excited about today?
Robin 03:08
I am excited, I can’t wait. It’s been three years, I think, since I was here. So I’m super charged up. I’ve already met two fantastic people, so I’m just hoping that I can maintain this kind of momentum throughout the whole show, to be honest with you.
Martin 03:21
Where are they? Who have you met?
Robin 03:23
Well, one of them is you, so I’ve really lucked out. You know, I’ve been learning all about your company and what you do. And of course, it’s about CO2, which, you know, ESG is massive, as everybody knows. I’m expecting to hear a lot about that topic this year. And so I feel like our first meeting, if we can call it that, which is on the U-Bahn, has really set the tone for me.
Martin 03:45
Why are you at Expo Real? What are you looking for the next couple of days?
Robin 03:48
Well, look, our magazine, we tend to cover deals, transactions, what the investment managers are doing. And so I’m going to be meeting lots of managers on this particular trip. But then, as I said, the conversation is going to be very wide. It’s going to be talking to other people that are involved in real estate, whether it be helping them, sustainable issues, for example. I just have to come back to that as a massive trend.
But above that, coming back to the investment side of it, I think a lot of it is going to be macroeconomic: what’s happening with interest rates, inflation in the background, recession. Are we in a recession? Are we going into recession? And of course, all those things have huge implications for the investment managers.
Henrik Taubøll er på plass på messegulvet.
Martin 04:27
We’ve arrived, so let’s go: Expo Real, day one. Det er dag én av Expo, ikke Real, men Real har jeg nå lært å si. Vi har kommet inn på messegulvet. Det er enorme haller her i München, og jeg har også sett et PropTech-ikon fra Norge. Henrik, hvorfor er du på Expo Real?
Henrik 04:46
Ja, jeg har alltid tenkt at Expo Real er en av de mest interessante arenaene for å se nye ting og lære om ny teknologi og ting som dukker opp. Og Expo Real har alltid hatt et litt annerledes perspektiv enn det vanlige vi ser i Norge. Det kommer veldig fra Sentral-Europa, og det er mange nye produkter som man ikke har hørt om. Det er veldig, veldig stort her. Og for å ta pulsen på det viktigste som skjer, så tror jeg det er viktig å være på Expo Real. Enda viktigere enn MIPIM og disse andre arrangementene.
Martin 05:13
Du har jo vært på Expo Real før. Hva har du funnet av PropTech, eiendomsteknologi, før som har vært spennende?
Henrik 05:22
Veldig mye. Alt fra Physee, disse gjennomsiktige glassene som også er solcellepanel, til masse ulike måter å lage betong på og sånn. Utrolig mange produkter, og veldig mange av de kontaktene jeg har, kjenner jeg faktisk fra at vi møttes her første gang. Og Expo Real var jo det stedet hvor Spacemaker ble lansert første gang, i den konkurransen, og Disruptive Technologies har vært her. Clever, mange, og Airthings selvfølgelig, godt eksponert.
Så de store norske har også blitt løftet litt frem av Expo Real-arenaen. Det er en arena som kanskje går litt under radaren for mange, men det er jo verdens største, eller Europas største, eiendomsmesse, så det er definitivt noe å få med seg hvis du driver med eiendom.
Martin 06:12
Og veldig tydelig at her er det jo også veldig tungt på kapitalsiden. Dette er jo både investorene, besitterne og forvalterne av eiendomsinvesteringene som kommer for å møtes og kanskje bli inspirert.
Henrik 06:25
Ja, og de virkelig store, ikke sant? Du har de store, tunge europeiske pengene. Du snakker om forvaltning; det er folk som forvalter hundretusenvis av bygg. Det er jo helt enorme miljøer som er her. Og det er jo disse PropTech-selskapene kanskje har litt nytte av å møte. Gå i hallene her og snakke med toppsjefene i de aller største europeiske selskapene, som alle er på stand og står rundt her. Det er egentlig bare å gå fra stand til stand, så er nesten alt interessant.
Martin 06:57
Vi er så vidt i gang. Hva er agendaen for disse tre dagene? Hva er det du er på utkikk etter?
Henrik 07:01
Vi jobber jo mest, i jobbsammenheng, med å snakke med selskaper som ønsker å investere i Norge på eiendomssiden og utvikle eiendom og kjøpe eiendom i Norden. Jeg ser at veldig mange av de norske meglermiljøene er her, Akershus Eiendom, Cushman, Newsec. Alle disse er på plass, og noen fra advokatsiden. Men det er jo ikke så mange norske eiendomseiere som er her, i motsetning til MIPIM i Cannes. Og kanskje det er fordi det er fluorlys og svære messehaller, null alkohol og bare seriøst prat.
Men samtidig tror jeg man kan lære veldig mye av å være her en dag eller to. Snakke med folk, et ordentlig seriøst opplegg hvor du kan snakke med folk med virkelig faglig tyngde. Det har man godt av.
Martin 07:49
Det er jo også noen aktiviteter fokusert på eiendomsteknologi.
Henrik 07:53
Det er det. Det er den globale PropTech-middagen onsdag klokken seks til åtte, skarpt. Så det er en kort middag. Men den samler jo de fleste eiendoms- og PropTech-entusiastene i Europa, så det er vel verdt å få med seg hvis man er et PropTech-selskap eller interessent.
Martin 08:14
Du må løpe videre til et møte, men vi sees i hvert fall på Global PropTech-middagen i morgen.
Henrik 08:18
Det gjør vi!
Øyvind Birkenes fra Airthings har en spennende lansering med seg i bagasjen fra Norge.
Martin 08:20
Selvfølgelig er norske selskaper representert her på Expo Real, og jeg sitter nå med daglig leder i Airthings. Øyvind, har det vært en bra dag?
Øyvind 08:28
Det har vært en utrolig bra dag og bra dager. Tre dager her nå med fullt kjør. Veldig mye interesse.
Martin 08:35
Men vi har jo hatt med oss noe veldig spennende på flyet fra Norge til München. Hva er det vi har hatt med i lommene?
Øyvind 08:41
Lommene fulle av vårt nye produkt, Space CO2 Mini. Helt fantastisk banebrytende produkt med mer enn 10 års batterilevetid. Du kan lese av CO2-nivå, fuktighet, temperatur, trykk, lys og støy. Du kan også få occupancy, som på norsk ville vært …
Martin 09:04
Tilstedeværelse.
Øyvind 09:06
Ja, tilstedeværelse og virusrisiko. Alt i den samme devicen.
Martin 09:10
Vi sitter jo med en sånn Space CO2 Mini nå i hånda, og den er jo virkelig mini. Den er under 8 centimeter i diameter. Åssen har vi greid å dytte inn så mye i en så liten forpakning?
Øyvind 09:23
Vi har et fantastisk engineeringteam i Oslo som klarer å få til helt utrolige ting. Vi bruker banebrytende, helt ny sensorteknologi som vi setter inn i disse devicene.
Martin 09:36
Som bruker utrolig lite energi, til å kunne få 10 år pluss …
Øyvind 09:40
Yes.
Martin 09:40
… batterilevetid.
Øyvind 09:40
Absolutt. Vi sender data til skyen hvert andre minutt, eller hvert 2,5 minutt, så du kan bruke dataen til også å styre bygget.
Martin 09:52
For det er vel et tydelig steg som også har resonert med publikummet her, som er redde for høye energipriser, finansieringskostnadene går ned. De må optimalisere og effektivisere byggene sine. Hvordan passer Space CO2 Mini inn i en slik satsing?
Øyvind 10:06
Ja, det er klart, Airthings startet jo med å monitorere luften. Man får en oversikt: Hva skjer, og hva kan man gjøre av manuelle justeringer i bygget sitt? Fordi man ser for eksempel at det er overventilert, eller det er for kaldt eller for varmt i forhold til hva det burde vært. Men nå kan vi også styre byggene. Vi har veldig real time sensordata, som gjør at vi kan integrere dataene inn i et SD-system eller BMS-system i bygget, for eksempel. Eller vi kan gjøre dette på en enda enklere måte og faktisk styre bygget i real time.
Martin 10:36
Hva slags bygg er denne løsningen spesielt egnet for, eller styrer?
Øyvind 10:40
Det er kontorbygg, og det er skoler og andre bygg.
Martin 10:45
Og kanskje spesielt de byggene som allerede finnes?
Øyvind 10:48
Ja, selvfølgelig. Det er for eksisterende bygg. Det er så lett å retrofitte. Du setter den opp med dobbeltsidig tape på veggen. Batterilevetid på over 10 år, sender data til skyen, så det er veldig lett å installere i et bygg.
Martin 11:04
Og hva har responsen vært her på Expo Real?
Øyvind 11:07
Veldig bra. Fantastisk, fra selskaper fra hele verden egentlig, men veldig mye av de som drifter og eier bygg, som er veldig interessert i å få byggene til å bli smartere og mer energieffektive.
Martin 11:21
Tusen takk! Og så får vi kose oss videre her på Airthings-boden i München.
Øyvind 11:25
Yes, takk, vi sees.
Freesi fra Finland har en løsning for bedre innemiljø
Martin 11:27
There are more Nordic property technology companies, or PropTech companies, here at Expo Real. I’ve gone over to PropTech Finland, who has a big booth with several Finnish companies that are showing their technology and innovation to the audiences here. And I’ve met up with Jan-Kristian Westerlund.
Jan-Kristian 11:46
Hi there! Thank you very much.
Martin 11:48
And you have some really cool technology called Freesi. Tell us about Freesi.
Jan-Kristian 11:52
Absolutely. Freesi is a new method for property owners and managers to take care of their indoor climate in a big portfolio. So we’re on the verge of something completely new compared to the other methods.
Martin 12:06
And how do you do that? How do you allow property owners to take control of their indoor air quality, the perceived quality in the portfolio?
Jan-Kristian 12:14
Of course, we need data that we can rely upon. I’m sure you know, from being from a sensors background, that that’s the starting point. We do supply sensors when it’s needed, but we prefer that the properties already have sensors in place. What we do is then we gather the data and analyze it together with tenant feedback. So we have both the experience data and the measured data. And in order to understand that, we actually have a team of engineers working on the data, advising the client on what to do, and that’s …
Martin 12:52
And I think the really cool thing about Freesi is that you bring the tenant experience, like “How do I feel the space is operating for me?”, as an actionable data point into operations or even the BMS. How do you capture tenant data within the space?
Jan-Kristian 13:06
Yeah, I agree, first of all, that the buildings are for the tenants, so it’s very important. We capture it with QR codes that we deploy into each space, so whenever we get feedback, we will know where it comes from and when, and that way, we can combine it with the measured data.
Martin 13:26
And where would these QR codes normally be placed within the building?
Jan-Kristian 13:29
For example in the office rooms, meeting rooms, also in residential buildings; it could be in residential units.
Martin 13:39
And if I’m a tenant in an office space, and I scan this QR code with my phone, what happens when I open up the link that is inside the QR code?
Jan-Kristian 13:47
Well, first of all, you will see the indoor climate quality in that space …
Martin 13:52
Okay.
Jan-Kristian 13:52
… if it’s measured.
Martin 13:53
Yep.
Jan-Kristian 13:53
And if not, you’ll see it in the building. So it will be not technical, but common ways of communicating that, so that it’s easy to understand. And then you will be able to give your feedback on it, for example on temperature, feeling of draft, any smells you might have, and things that we can then compare to measured results.
Martin 14:16
But then if I give feedback on my experience, what happens to the feedback data? If you say it’s too warm, too cold, or it’s a bit smelly.
Jan-Kristian 14:24
Well, this feedback will go to the property managers then. Of course, we’ll digest it, report it in a good way, and then the property managers will be able to see whether it’s just one-off feedback or it’s consistent, and whether it correlates to these measured results. And from that, the property manager is able to do the actions that are needed.
Indoor climate is all about, and the actions are all about, communication with the tenants as well, so they have an easier time getting back timely to the tenants when they receive the feedback, instead of, for example, if they would have just annual surveys or something like that. Now they have actionable data to come back with.
Martin 15:07
Excellent. Thank you. Enjoy the conference.
Jan-Kristian 15:09
Thank you so much.
BIMENSION: ligger Norge 10 år foran Tyskland på eiendomsteknologi?
Martin 15:11
I’m at the beginning of the tech alley here now, and I have met a company here with a very big statement in their flyers: “BIMENSION: Pimp Your Real Estate Portfolio.” And Peter Roos, what problem do you solve in BIMENSION?
Peter 15:26
So the problem we solve is that we get, in a very fast way, the actual data situation of refurbished buildings. That means that if there are no plans available, we can step into the building, do the digitalization and do the 3D modeling in a very fast way, so that the architecture can, based on that data, have actual data available.
Martin 15:54
So you’re essentially going in with a 3D scanner …
Peter 15:57
Yes.
Martin 15:57
… generating a point cloud from both inside and outside the building …
Peter 16:01
Yes.
Martin 16:01
… and then also converting them to …
Peter 16:05
3D model.
Martin 16:05
To what?
Peter 16:05
To 3D model.
Martin 16:07
Which then can be the foundation for planning refurbishments.
Peter 16:10
That’s correct.
Martin 16:12
Is this something new or common in Germany?
Peter 16:15
It’s pretty new, let’s say. Other countries are, let’s say, 10 years forward. In Germany, it’s really at the very beginning of this period. And building information modeling, this is one part, it’s also pretty new in Germany. We have actually started some projects with building information modeling, but this is the very beginning of, let’s say, a huge new culture. And to get the right understanding into the architectures and to the firms who are using this kind of new methods: for Germany, it’s new methods.
Martin 16:54
So, Peter, we had a bit of a conversation before I turned on the microphone here. And I realized that this kind of solution, this kind of service, is something that’s common in Norway already.
Peter 17:10
Yes. 10 years ago, I think you already started this building information modeling, and that’s nothing new for you.
Martin 17:15
But at the same time, in Norway, we’ve always had a high regard for German engineering and German technology. Why do you think Germany, in this digitalization approach, is lagging behind?
Peter 17:28
I think the main issue is that the whole process and the responsibility for the building, from the very beginning to the end of the building’s life cycle, is not present.
Martin 17:40
Yeah.
Peter 17:40
So the main investors, they’re buying something, and then three weeks later, it’s already bought again.
Martin 17:46
Yeah.
Peter 17:46
So it’s sold again, and that’s the main reason, I think, because the interest in doing building information modeling is not obvious. So there’s no need for it, because the investors buy something, sell it very fast, and there’s no need for building information modeling. But if you have investors who are also looking at the lifetime cycle …
Martin 18:09
Yeah.
Peter 18:09
… and the facility management, then it will become, let’s say, more attractive, because facility management is 80 percent of the whole life cycle.
Martin 18:19
Good luck.
Peter 18:19
Thank you.
Vilisto oppgraderer vannbårne radiatorer til smarte ovner med 32% energibesparelse
Martin 18:21
Another innovative company we see here that’s really tackling the energy crisis we’re seeing in Europe, by allowing buildings to be retrofitted, is Vilisto. And I’m standing here with Hilko Pastoor.
Hilko 18:32
Yes, hello. Nice to meet you.
Martin 18:34
And in front of us here now, you have a waterborne radiator that you cut out, and there’s a really cool gadget standing on the side here. What is this gadget?
Hilko 18:44
Yes, that is actually our self-learning radiator thermostat, which automatically heats rooms only when they are in use, and stops heating them when nobody uses them.
Martin 18:55
And then do you have to program this into your BMS, your building management system, to allow this to work?
Hilko 19:01
No, actually not. It is a standalone solution that automatically learns and adapts to the usage patterns of the room. So we have three sensors included in the thermostat, which is motion, sound and light, and these check the occupancy patterns and the usage patterns of the room once a minute, and thereby generate a heating profile in the background.
Martin 19:24
And initially, when you install this, it seems like a very standard installation here. It just fits into the normal pipes on the radiator. Is there complicated programming to give it the initial programming for how it should adapt to the room?
Hilko 19:38
No, actually not, because we just install the system. It takes two weeks for an initial learning phase, and after this, we switch to the heating based on the algorithm, and then it heats automatically.
Martin 19:51
So it literally is a self-learning, decentralized control of the radiator?
Hilko 19:57
Yes, that sums it up.
Martin 19:58
And if you have a whole building, you maybe have 100 radiators, do they all talk to each other?
Hilko 20:04
No, they don’t, because you want to heat every single room individually, based on the needs and the usage and the heating needs of that specific room. So in that sense, you’re actually controlling every room on its own, but you don’t need them to communicate with each other, because on a building level, there is no need for that.
Martin 20:22
So going from a non-controlled radiator like this to installing Vilisto, what kind of savings are you seeing in terms of heating within buildings?
Hilko 20:32
Right now, we have 175 customers …
Martin 20:35
Wow.
Hilko 20:35
… and we have proven savings of 20 to 30 percent for that. So we always eradicate and clear for weather conditions and weather effects, and by that, we see what we can actually save. And that is precisely 20 to 30 percent, depending on the building, depending on the control settings of the already installed systems.
Martin 20:59
And what’s the ideal building where you go in to retrofit these kinds of devices?
Hilko 21:03
I would say any building in the building stock that is a commercially used building, like an office building or any kind of that. We also equip schools and municipality buildings that are older than, say, 2000 or 1990.
Martin 21:19
Why older than 2000 or 1999?
Hilko 21:22
Because these buildings usually have less isolation, and as a result, they have way higher heating demands and energy consumption in that sense.
Martin 21:33
What are your expansion plans beyond Germany, and do you have any activity in the Nordics or Norway?
Hilko 21:38
Actually, not yet, but we’re looking to enter these markets as well, because we see huge demand for our system there as well. We are actually the market leader in our segment of self-learning radiator thermostats for non-residential buildings, and yeah, we’re looking to expand next year.
Martin 21:56
So if there’s anyone in the podcast, Praktisch PropTech, is that the right way to say the podcast in German?
Hilko 22:01
Yes, that’s the right way. Praktisch PropTech.
Martin 22:04
Oh, it sounds much more exciting in German. So if there’s any of our listeners that want to get in touch and are curious to test it out in Norway, how would they get in touch with you?
Hilko 22:12
Well, just go to our website. It’s called www.vilisto.de, and then you will also find an English section, and then just get in contact with us via the website form.
Martin 22:23
Excellent. I’ll put that in the show notes. I think this is really, really exciting, particularly because you’ve switched the model from a centralized automation in the building to, like, let’s just get the sensors, the devices, the actuators to think for themselves and not need to communicate with everyone else. Super interesting.
Hilko 22:39
All right, thank you so much. Have a good day to the listeners.
Manu Shamsrizi er innovasjonseksperten på Expo Real og oppsummerer utfordringene og mulighetene med innovasjon innenfor eiendom, sett fra München.
Martin 22:42
Thank you. So I’ve met up with Manu, who’s responsible for the innovation program here at Expo Real. It’s really nice to have a chat with you, Manu.
Manu 22:52
Hi, Martin. It’s a pleasure to see you again.
Martin 22:54
You have a lot of energy and a lot of personality, and you really are a community builder when it comes to the PropTech companies …
Manu 23:02
Thank you.
Martin 23:02
… the property technology companies. Based on all the companies that are here this year, what’s the common theme in the problems they’re trying to solve?
Manu 23:09
Many of the innovators that we’re highlighting are here to get real when it comes to solutions to problems that are known. I mean, it’s not coming as something new that you have the taxonomy of the European Union. It’s not new. We decided globally on the Sustainable Development Goals in 2015, right? So everybody had time to get prepared. Turns out, part of the real estate industry didn’t prepare themselves, so now they are looking for innovations from startups or small and medium enterprises, but they are looking for those innovations and collaborations because they need them to fulfill the ESG and whatever.
We have been debating these things on a theoretical level for many, many years, and not many actors have made the decisions they need to make to have a real change, and now they are desperate. And desperate times might be good times for startups, though.
Martin 24:17
But do you really feel that the property industry is embracing this need to do technological innovation? One case in point: we’re now in A3. It is the hall that’s the furthest away from the main entrance. In the back corner, that’s where we find the tech alley with the innovation companies. Has it been hidden away in the back just as a token?
Manu 24:37
A more fair question to ask would be: why is the Wi-Fi connectivity for the startups as problematic as it is, right? You would expect the tech alley to have the strongest Wi-Fi.
Martin 24:49
Yeah.
Manu 24:49
Especially, if I may add that, if you keep in mind that these are the halls of Messe München, where a few days ago, with Bits & Pretzels, one of Europe’s largest innovation …
Martin 25:03
Yeah.
Manu 25:03
… summits took place, right? So it is possible to make that happen. No, but to answer your question seriously: to be honest, no, I don’t think so. I believe that still many decision-makers in the real estate industry are doing, or are enforcing, transformations when it comes to sustainability, when it comes to digitalization, and new forms of organizational development, for example, not because they believe in them, but because regulators are asking them to, because their clients are asking them to, because the people working for them are asking them to do so.
In the end, if you look at it from the what-kind-of-impact-has-happened perspective, I would argue it doesn’t matter if ESG, for example, with all the greenwashing that is still ongoing, but let’s assume for a moment that there would not be greenwashing, it doesn’t matter if that is implemented because the decision-making generation, so to say, believes in it, or because they are asked to do so and they are forced to do so. In the end, it’s the impact that matters.
Martin 26:17
I know you’re a very innovative person yourself, Manu. You’ve also won the Entrepreneur of the Year award for your startup within a different field. And looking around and looking at innovation in different industries, why do you think property, particularly, has struggled to stay ahead and adopt new technologies and stay innovative?
Manu 26:35
Because their main business, so to say, hasn’t changed over millennia, has it? I mean, the building is there, and if you’re not innovating it, it’s still gonna be there in 10 years. So if that is your definition of how to do property or real estate industry, I think you would not need any innovation to stay competitive until now. This, of course, is changing. And I can give you one example that we just had on the last tour. “Do I need to innovate” was something we discussed with the startups and the tour participants, to avoid stranded assets.
I believe that that is the case. If you need innovation to fulfill ESG frameworks, SDG frameworks, if you need to be an innovative organization so that people want to come and work for you, and if you do not do it, although you need it, then you might end up with stranded assets because you’re not an interesting actor on the market anymore …
Martin 27:47
What is a stranded asset?
Manu 27:49
It’s a part of your portfolio that you cannot sell to the market. Like, for example, one that you start building now, you want to sell it in five years, but you have not incorporated ESG dimensions, yeah.
Martin 28:03
And is that a practical reality of how regulation is working through, for example the EU taxonomy, will result in these stranded assets?
Manu 28:12
I believe so. I believe that this is one of the largest risks, and that’s the interesting aspect to observe, I believe, at this point. I believe, technically speaking, the real estate industry is really good at measuring risks. So if that definition of risk would be broadened up, if it would include taxonomy and ESG, if it would include how do I stay an organization that people want to come and work for, how do I stay interesting for my clients, right? And all these things are happening.
But everything that is in this hall and classified as innovation, think of it as a tool to support your risk management. In this way, I believe it might make more sense for people coming from this conservative real estate industry, because they always were thinking about risks, right? They always had their insurances.
Martin 29:12
Yeah.
Manu 29:12
This is, next to shipping, one of the industries that was at the birth of insurance as a business model, right? So just broaden your definition of risk. Think of what non-innovating might be as a risk, and then you have a good understanding of why you need these innovations.
Martin 29:33
So the solution for the innovation problem in property is to term it in terms of risk, broaden the definition of risk, and then we will see them actually catching up and be more curious about the …
Manu 29:45
I believe so.
Martin 29:45
… technology companies.
Manu 29:46
I believe so. Not for everyone. There are people out there, and I meet them every year, who just see the beauty of innovation and making things in a different, more sustainable, more inclusive way. But for the rest, yes, framing it as a risk might be the smartest thing to do.
Martin 30:03
Okay. So with that tip, I think you have a new crowd waiting for your very popular innovation tour. Thank you for talking to us.
Manu 30:11
Thanks for having me, Martin.
